Today I talk with Mike Rowe about different leadership styles for different times, the intersection of policing and urban design, and individual discretion versus the environment in which it is exercised.
In this thought-provoking conversation, we dive deep with Dr. Mike Rowe, an academic with a unique perspective on policing, bureaucracy, and community dynamics. From his firsthand observations of police officers in action to his involvement in urban regeneration projects, Mike offers rare insights into how institutions function—and sometimes malfunction—on the front lines. This episode explores the persistent patterns of inequality in policing, the challenges facing higher education, and innovative approaches to community empowerment. Whether you're interested in criminal justice reform, organizational behavior, or urban planning, Mike's observations challenge conventional thinking about how we build safer, more equitable communities.
[00:02:00 - 00:05:00] Crisis in Higher Education Mike discusses the current turbulence in UK higher education, including funding cuts affecting research areas like disability studies. He describes widespread anxiety among academics due to strike actions and threatened redundancies. As a union representative, Mike spends considerable time supporting colleagues facing workplace challenges. He notes that higher education seems to be going through a universal period of transition with little certainty about the future.
Key Ideas
[00:05:00 - 00:07:00] Leadership During Organizational Contraction Mike observes that organizations typically expand and contract in asymmetrical ways. During expansion, they build capital assets and infrastructure, while contraction usually means cutting staff. He argues that managers who perform well during expansion often lack the competencies needed during contraction. This creates institutional vulnerabilities that affect decision-making, particularly in systems like policing and higher education where risk assessment becomes increasingly important.
[00:09:00 - 00:12:00] Political Influence and Discretion in Policing The conversation shifts to how police decisions are influenced by political factors, though Mike notes this operates differently in the UK versus the US. He gives an example of officers being explicitly instructed not to focus on potential drug use during a Gay Pride event, illustrating how policing priorities can shift based on context. Mike emphasizes that systemic inequalities persist despite decades of training and diversification efforts, pointing to 40 years of data showing disproportionate use of stop-and-search powers against young Black men.
[00:12:00 - 00:16:00] Understanding Police Discretion Mike explains that officer discretion is not truly free choice but is shaped by multiple factors including computer systems, supervision, public interactions, and organizational processes. He notes that after six years of observation across three police organizations, officer decisions rarely surprised him because their choices were so heavily constrained by context. Mike emphasizes that while individual officers face accountability for decisions, the organizational factors shaping those decisions are rarely examined.
[00:20:00 - 00:22:00] Qualities of Effective Officers When asked about good police officers, Mike identifies several key qualities. Good officers never make situations worse by their presence, demonstrate an unwillingness to rush to judgment, and remain open to being proven wrong. These qualities allow them to de-escalate rather than aggravate situations. Mike focuses on understanding how even "good officers" can still contribute to systemic problems, rather than just focusing on removing "bad officers."
[00:24:00 - 00:28:00] Community Design and Relocation The conversation turns to urban planning, with Mike discussing Liverpool's history and the creation of planned communities like Kirby. He describes how planners relocated entire neighborhoods from Liverpool to newly designed towns, often with poor results. These rational, planned communities frequently failed because they didn't account for how people actually use spaces. Mike suggests that keeping communities together during redevelopment might be a more effective approach than relocating them.
[00:28:00 - 00:32:00] Cross-Disciplinary Urban Planning Mike discusses the intersection of policing and urban design, noting that police typically focus on access and visibility rather than social dynamics. He explains how communities will "subvert" poorly designed spaces by creating their own paths of desire. The discussion highlights the disconnect between elected officials who have democratic legitimacy and various agencies with different agendas but less accountability. Mike notes that housing has shifted from direct public investment to a more complicated system of housing associations.
[00:33:00 - 00:38:00] Community Voice in Urban Regeneration Mike shares his experience with a European-funded urban regeneration program in Nottingham that took an innovative approach. Rather than simply building projects with limited funding, the program used its resources to influence how larger institutions operated in the community. He gives the example of a community gaining input on how a tram line would be built through their neighborhood, shifting from powerlessness to having meaningful influence. Mike's role as a director was to ensure decisions were informed by community voices rather than his own preferences.
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